Healthcare Reform

Healthcare Reform

Big Government Healthcare Reform what America needs?
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25 Replies to “Healthcare Reform”

  1. @thereinliestherib “350 BILLION” right, and how many billion do they pay in UK for the same reason, (yet their system is universal)? My whole point is it’s 350 billion plus 5-6 billion for lawsuits, plus x billion for insurance executives salaries, plus another x billion for people who can’t afford insurance but receive care, etc…all extra costs that only apply to the American system.

    “Obamacare will only increase” for the millionth time obamacare is not the solution, true universal care is.

  2. @thereinliestherib 3/3The result? After 60+years of UHC no sane person rich or poor would think about getting rid of the NHS even with its faults. From what I have learnt about the US health system at its best must be great at its worse it is a National disgrace. In terms of having a discussion we are doing OK no insults and a certain respect and understanding for the other sides point of view. If you wish to end here I’m happy with that. Regards

  3. @thereinliestherib 2/3The rest of the family surviving on very basic charity when things went wrong leading to very high deaths rates and short life expectancy among the very poor. After WWII even though the UK was financially destroyed the NHS came into being at the demand of the working class who where fed up being treated like shit by their supposed betters.

  4. @thereinliestherib1/3 If I can make one last point about what you have just written regarding your last sentence. From what I understand from my own family and reading about healthcare in the UK before the advent of the NHS in 1947 when most of the slum dwelling poor would have little or nothing in the way of health insurance. My father a miner and breadwinner contributing to an insurance club called “the lump” it looked his after basic healthcare.

  5. @davijeph We agree that taxes on unhealthy goods and services are necessary to offset the overwhelming costs of personal irresponsibility, and that’s enough for me. In regards to that, I think we’re ignoring that we can agree more than disagree. If you lived in the US and could see just how much insanely poor health plagues this country (and how we just culturally ignore it) I think your views would shift a bit toward the responsibility end versus the entitlement end of the spectrum.

  6. @TheRandiniarolla HA! Do you know what the cost of obesity alone is, excluding other similar conditions, and excluding its broader economic costs (lost productivity, lost jobs, higher employer costs, outsourcing…)? 350 BILLION. That’s obesity alone. These are the comparative facts you simply don’t understand. BTW, by increasing liabilities and govt/provider exposure to lawsuits, Obamacare will only increase the volume of litigation you just cited. So you know.

  7. @thereinliestherib 85,000 medical lawsuits are filed each in the US costing insurance companies 5-6 billion a year, this cost then tranfers to consumers through higher premiums. Some facts. I could continue…

    “How can you possibly belittle a 75% obesity/overweight rate” i’m not, i understand premiums are high because there’s so many unhealthy people,but premiums are also needlessly high because of the other factors i mentioned, factors that only apply under the American system (like lawsuits)

  8. @thereinliestherib I am not ignoring it at all. I am simply saying in the final analysis any society that calls itself civilised must try and help everyone within in that society. You cannot but help anyone who is ill irrespective of how they acquired their illness. True any sane individual must be held responsible for there actions if you harm another person or there property while drunk or on drugs then punishment should follow but drug user or not we cannot but try and treat there illness.

  9. @TheRandiniarolla Which facts? Which stats? All of those I listed, and which you’ve roundly ignored? How can you possibly belittle a 75% obesity/overweight rate, or the fact that the top most expensive and common conditions draining Hc resources are ALL related to poor health choices related to weight and smoking? And how do you not understand that even public systems are beholden to basic market laws? Money grows on trees, eh? Nope, it don’t–you are completely misled.

  10. @davijeph You either make such difficult choices before they are necessary, or you wait until public resources are all gone, and the decision is made for everyone, regardless (which is where we’re already at in the states). That’s the economic law of finitude. If everyone acted so irresponsibly, then no one would receive any care at all. I grew up dirt poor and lost siblings to drugs and poor health–and I will say without a doubt, poor health is a personal choice.

  11. @davijeph You’re still ignoring the distinction I’m pointing out. You cannot help those who refuse to help themselves and who knowingly engage in behavior that entails enormous costs for others. The opportunity cost of spending so wastefully is investing in causes of far greater utility and need, such as education. Nevermind–we agree that a truly progressive HC system would be based on taxes on the unhealthy behaviors with the greatest adverse effect on cost, and I appreciate that.

  12. @thereinliestherib I assume you disagree but how and who in a civilised society makes the decision that says because this drug ,smoking ,alcohol addict can no longer afford treatment for his illness he should be left to die in agony. Unlike say social welfare payments healthcare should not be a case of taking resources away from the “deserving” and giving it to the “undeserving” but ensuring all citizens get the care they need irrespective of financial or other circumstances.

  13. @thereinliestherib I don’t see that my views are inconsistent. It is quite consistent to say that wherever possible things that can cause illness tobacco, alcohol, high sugar or fat content should have a health tax imposed, is not incompatible with saying if you are ill because of life style choices you still have the right to medical care. The reason why people must be treated regardless of life style or circumstances is simple, common humanity and decency.

  14. @thereinliestherib “insurance markets” market? So is there a public school market? A police market? No, these are publicly funded, meaning they’re OFF the market, and this is how HC should be run.

    “cost principles apply either way” they don’t and i’ve already explained to you how and why.

    “you don’t understand this” i understand what you’re saying, just the facts and stats say you’re wrong.

    “why govt insurers are already in the tank” because ALL govt programs are, like i said in my last post

  15. @davijeph Damn right we agree, and I am working on it. But you still haven’t addressed the inconsistency in your view that one person is responsible for another person’s irresponsibility–that’s the definition of bad faith, because it only preserves the irresponsibility of that person, at the cost of others who truly need those resources through no fault of their own. Smokers and fat people knowingly assume the risks of their behavior; just as drunk drivers, murderers, drug dealers… etc.

  16. @TheRandiniarolla You’ve got more skirts than a tween. Try again. None of your statements even remotely addressed my points. Under a universal system, the govt becomes the insurer, and the same cost principles of insurance markets apply either way. It’s hilarious that you don’t understand this, and belittle the ENORMOUS cost significance of a 75% obesity/overweight rate. You still haven’t addressed why existing govt insurers are already in the tank (its pool risk duder).

  17. @thereinliestherib Under a universal system medical services are paid for with taxes. There’s no insurance companies involved.

    “personal responsibility” speaking of ideology and propaganda.

    “foremost determinant of cost” the cost of the service provided, is my answer to your question.

    “why are govt insurers in the tank” because the whole govt is in the tank,just like most of the world economy is in the tank. Unhealthy people aren’t the MAIN reason all govt programs have less money these days.

  18. @thereinliestherib “I’d support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs.” Then we agree I hope you are working to achieve that. In the mean time I take it that you really would allow people to live and die in agony just because you disapprove of some aspect of there life style? A simple yes or no will do . Regards

  19. @davijeph Nope, I was the one who brought up taxes, a point with which you initially disagreed. You’re still skirting the inconsistency in your views of social responsibility–if I have a responsibility toward someone else’s costs, then that person is responsible for not being an undue burden on others ability to claim that same privilige. But last we left off, we half agreed–I’d support universal HC here ONLY if funded through taxes on the unhealthy goods and services driving up costs.

  20. @TheRandiniarolla Wait a minute–so socialized system aren’t “insurance”? Yes they are. Citizens are the insured, and taxpayers are the insuree–thus removing any minimal requirement of personal responsibility for one’s health, which is exactly what has already corrupted the private markets. Last chance–answer my question. What is the foremost determinant of cost? Why are govt insurers already in the tank, given that they aren’t exposed to private market factors?

  21. @thereinliestherib “ideology and left wing propaganda” whatever sir i’ve given you easily verifiable hard facts, there’s no ideoligy involved.

    “the distinction between public and private markets is irrelevant compared with broader factors” so are billions and billions of $ “irrelevant”?

    “foremost determinant of cost for any insurance market” Seriously!? how many times do i need to point out the US is the only developed nation with a health ‘insurance’ system? Health ‘insurance’ doesn’t work!

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